How Jesse Cunningham Uses AI to Create High-Quality Content At Scale

In this episode of the Niche Pursuits podcast, SEO expert Jesse Cunningham joins us to give us a masterclass in AI content creation (at scale).

Jesse runs a successful SEO agency and shares helpful experiments regarding AI and SEO on his YouTube channel.

In his interview, we're lucky to hear him summarize some of his most important findings.

For one, he's all about topical authority. And shares how AI has helped make this easier than ever.

To do this with AI in a way that ranks, Jesse emphasizes the need for a comprehensive content map and well-organized page structure.

And he gives some pretty interesting insights into what he does for this which may surprise you.

Besides ChatGPT and Claude.ai, he shares two AI tools that he trusts: WordGalaxy.ai and especially SEOWriting.ai, the last of which, he even uses to automate image creation and alt text.

These tools can help streamline the content creation process and make it more efficient and scalable for both agencies and individual website builders.

But of course, Jesse also highlights the importance of editing to publish concise and relevant content, as well as fact-checking, especially in YMYL niches where accuracy is of utmost importance.

He then gets into how to create beautiful, data-based content with AI to attract links.

And how he believes the priority for content creators should be on dominating topical authority and providing valuable content.

By increasing their output through implementing a process that leverages virtual assistants, content creators can scale better and cheaper than ever before.

The talk then winds down with a high-level look at The Helpful Content Update (HCU).

This has changed the landscape of website creation, requiring websites to present themselves as businesses within Google's ecosystem. And Jesse suggests adding services, consultation options, or even emulating real companies in the footer to align with the HCU.

In short, Jesse shows how with the help of AI tools, optimizing content structure, and focusing on topical authority, content creators can not only survive but flourish in today's SEO landscape.

Please enjoy!

Watch The Interview

Topics Jesse Cunningham Covers

• Local vs Global SEO
• Semantic relationships
• How he creates topical authority
• How to use AI for content creation
• Process for creating rankable AI content
• Importance of keyword research
• Structuring content
• Editing and fact-checking AI content
• Tools for scaling AI content creation
• Building internal links
• Tips for attracting links organically
• Surviving HCU
• And a whole lot more...

Links & Resources

• Digital Marketing & Website Design | 712 Digital Marketing LLC
• Jesse Cunningham - YouTube
• Jesse Cunningham V (@jcunninghamseo) / X (twitter.com)
• SEO WRITING - AI Writing Tool for 1-Click SEO Articles
• Wordgalaxy
• Home - Bonsai Mary
• Link Whisper
• Get SEO Consulting from the Niche Pursuits Podcast Host, Jared Bauman.

transcription

Jared: Alright, welcome back to the Niche Pursuits podcast. My name is Jared Bauman, and today we are joined by Jesse Cunningham with 712 Digital. Jesse, 

Jesse: welcome. Thank you, Jared. Thank you for having me. Man, it's kind of surreal because I've been watching you and Spencer for like years, and um, my goodness, Tony's like, hey man.

I talked to Jared about you coming on the show. Um, I think it might happen. So here I am. Um, I'm a little bit excited. I'm a little bit caffeinated. So if I start talking really loud and I start talking fast and I have the jitters just like, kick me under the table, and uh, we'll be 

Jared: good. You know, we've had hundreds of guests.

I'm sure that you won't talk as fast as the fastest guest we've ever had. Which I, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but, man, we get them all shapes and sizes, and as long as you bring value, No one's going to care if you talk fast or not, so, um. I will say, if you're watching on YouTube, I have met my match with my colored background.

Uh, I thought I nailed it with just kind of the nice blase blue setting. But you've got like a variety of colors going there. Well done, well done. 

Jesse: It's all about the shading, right? 

Jared: Yeah, I, seriously, you, you've nailed it. I mean, 

Jesse: Ikea shelves. That's the, that's the trick. 

Jared: Well, I won't tell you about my Ikea wine cabinet in the background, um, that never really gets used, but it's there for a fact, I'll tell you.

It makes sense. You're a popular, you've got a very popular YouTube channel, which we'll talk about a little bit later. Eyeballing a lot of your videos, uh, uh, before we started recording here and in preparation. So, um, I don't want to bury the lead on who you are and what you're doing. Tell us about yourself, um, your involvement in, in SEO and website content creation, and then.

We'll get into all the details. We've got a really fun episode ahead of us. I'm really, people are gonna be really excited to hear about the topics we're going into. Heck yeah. I'm 

Jesse: going to nerd out for, for real. Um, so my name is Jesse Cunningham. What I do, I provide SEO services for local businesses, national and global businesses.

And that looks way different for every type of business, right? Local business compared to the conventional keyword research type of thing that global businesses do. Which niche websites are accustomed to that. That looks way different. Um, my favorite type of clients are very complicated clients. Um, I have buddies who are just local SEO experts.

And they're like, why do you like the headache clients? They call them headache clients. But to me, I get bored very easily. So, I've taken on a huge task that just satiates my competitive side and just, you know, creative side too. 

Jared: I get this question a lot. Let me throw it at you really quickly, um, about the, the agency.

Because I run an agency as well and we do a mixture of local and then what I would say national or global. And because local SEO is so different than other types of SEO, I get asked by people like, Why do you do both? Why don't you? I'm just curious, from your standpoint, you, you, you already mentioned how different they are.

Why do both, why not go after just one? 

Jesse: You know, I never talk about this on my channel and we have a lot of people we were talking about, who are we speaking to in this podcast? And it might be that person who has a nine to five and wants to break out of the nine to five, right. And make a couple extra thousand dollars on the side.

The most immediate way to make money is to provide. In my opinion, SEO services, if you have the skill to local businesses, right? So that's how it started. Um, for five years, we've been very serious about SEO. Um, that's how it started and it morphed into bigger and bigger businesses. That's just natural.

Jared: Tell me about, um, some of the results that you typically see or that you often see, just as we move into. How you get results for clients. And I think for everybody listening, um, and I teased it in the intro, but if you're listening, like a lot of what Jesse's doing has overlap for people who are building websites, not at an agency level.

So that's why I'm going to get to that and we're going to get into how you create content and these sorts of things that I think are very interesting. But what are the growth vehicles for you as an agency to get results for clients and what kind of results do those end up yielding? 

Jesse: For local business, I think, well, something I'm proud of, someone who's become a friend of mine, five years ago, we started, they were...

Two to three million dollar gross revenue. I'll call it a contractor. Now they're 12 to 13. That doesn't I might be five to ten, you know, call it four four to five percent of the equation. I'll You know part of me is like yes, we did it But in reality the business owner really kicked butt but it's cool to be a part of that Nonetheless how we do that.

Um, it's more than seo quite frankly. It's digital marketing which can overlay into You know, Facebook, this type of thing. Um, but for a local business, the things to do, I think, are service location pages, building out NAP and just creating a really tight web presence, which the onus is on the, um, the client often to get Google reviews, right?

But then, um, on the flip side, call it a global business, which is going after, you can have CCTLDs in wherever Singapore, right? Dubai. That's when we start to discuss niche website ideas. And it has to do with how I structure my agency is there's one head, like one brain, which usually is me. And then there's like an octopus of arms to just carry out like the hive mind thoughts.

Um, something I'm proud of recently, most recent success would be taking a financial firm. I'll just call it finance, right? Um, from about 18, 000 a month in February to about. Approaching 100, 000 a month, um, we're in October. And they didn't get hit by the H C U, which we can talk about. Um, I think a lot of it has to do with, well, we can talk about it.

But I think, yeah, there's a lot there to talk about. 

Jared: I feel like we're definitely, I'm going to give everybody we have on for the next couple months at least five minutes to, to, to give us their impression of the H C U and, and where, where site owners can go from there. I do think it's really interesting because you're exactly right.

And I run an agency, so I know the overlaps in Ranking and growing brands that have a national presence and ranking and growing websites that target national and international queries, right? And in many ways, there is so much overlap between a online business that maybe you work for, like your finance brand you just mentioned, targeting a global or at least a national audience and say what a common website builder would do when they're targeting.

To rank for affiliate or informational or e com queries, right? So, um, Hey, there's, there's a lot of challenges to go into that. You got the added layer of having a client on top of it, by the way. So, uh, if you're struggling with, with growing your website, um, throwing in a client and all those conversations into it as adds another layer of complexity, how are you growing?

How, you know, like just, let's, let's, let's kind of knuckle in, let's get, let's get dirty here and talk about how you're growing these and some of the strategies you're using. 

Jesse: I mean, I call it old school SEO, like nothing's new under the sun, right? Like, we've all heard of these concepts before, but I like visuals.

Whenever I talk on YouTube, I try to think of the person I'm talking to and try to break it down simple. So, me and you, we're pretend Englishmen and there's a beautiful green field away, right? And we can see our sheep on the field. When sheep eat grass, they stick together, right? We all walk a step and we eat the grass.

So, we have a paddock. The sheep can only go within this paddock. And that's all the potential keywords we can get. We can write about all these things. But I make sure, whenever I do keyword research, and start to actually put content to the paper or website. We stick together, we dominate a cluster at a time, and I exhaust that cluster.

I exhaust it. And that's what shows success, because now we're the topical authority on XYZ, and then I can build semantic relationships with other hubs, and it's really that rinse and repeat. 

Jared: So, content clustering and topical authority are not new concepts. For a lot of people, the struggle arises, uh, well there's a lot of struggles, but I'll just start listing off a few of them.

Um, making sure that you, uh, are targeting the correct keywords and phrases. Trying to pick which ones to write individual articles on, or cover topically, or which ones to include inside of other topics. And then just the sheer amount of content that usually needs to get produced to exhaust, as you put it, to exhaust that, uh, that topic.

So, how are you, you know, how are you doing each of those? Or pick which one you want to tackle first and we'll, we'll go down that road. 

Jesse: So if you have a client budget, right, this is the biggest issue, and this is why a, this is, this is the foundation of why I talk about what I do on YouTube. It's because big companies, 1, 000 plus employees, they have a budget for SEO, right?

We exhaust that budget, we can't do anything else. I can only do 80 articles in a month. Well, enter AI content. It's much more affordable to have someone edit the content than write it anew. Right, but everyone was freaking out whether or not google was going to penalize this stuff. What is google going to do?

They officially said it's cool. Is it cool? Is it cool? Right. I mean they did 

Jared: say it was 

Jesse: cool. Right, but google has been known to To say one thing and do another. Um, just my opinion. Disclaimer. Um, so, whenever you're up against a budget, it's like min maxer. I'm like, I used to be addicted to video games. And you can min max in video games, right?

Um, I want total efficiency out of whatever I'm doing. Well... Editing, I think, is the new way. And, to just add to this, there used to be an old adage for niche website owners. If you have 500 articles on your website, you can start to see traction. I think the bar has been raised, officially. 

Jared: And this is because of the volume of content that's getting produced nowadays?

Yeah, because I 

Jesse: can produce at a 100th of the cost of what it used to take. 

Jared: I don't want to over tease you, but man, I would love to hear... About that more in depth. I mean, your number three most popular video is chat GPT plus wolfram plus web pilot You seem to be a pretty big authority on how to produce edited AI content.

Can we talk about it? 

Jesse: Yeah love to I mean, that's that's what I nerd out on Where should we start Jared? I mean, what's a good primer for it 

Jared: start with this? Start with the talking to the skeptic who has not embraced AI In their writing process. And then let's dive into just a bit of a framework, just so people can get their mind around it.

And I, I do want to, um, What I want to talk to is the person who doesn't use it at all. And let's just touch on that. But also the person who uses ChatGPT for more of a conversation. And hasn't figured out how to use it for proper writing. You know, to get the results that they would need to replace. What they're doing on their website and then I mean we're gonna have so many questions to come out of that But maybe let's start 

Jesse: there.

So if we start with the skeptic, I often seen comments on youtube that are like Did you run it through a what it is called originality score type of thing? Remember that used to be the conversation Um, it doesn't matter because first off, those tools, in my opinion, disclaimer, take all this with a grain of salt.

Don't implement what I'm saying just because I'm saying it, right? Because like I said, I don't know what Google is going to do, but nonetheless, those tools seem to me to be grossly incorrect. I've taken my writers, which we have three American based writers who kick butt some of the best writers in the world, in my opinion, and their content is showing up as AI partially.

So to the skeptics, who's like always asking, what is its score on AI content? Duh duh duh. I don't think that matters. Um, furthermore, I've done experiments with clients consent where we had a hub. Remember the sheep kind of eating the grass? Well, there was, call it 50, 60 articles in this hub and I snuck in a couple 100 percent Chatshubt articles and guess what?

They ranked in the top three. But, here's the biggest thing. Why did they rank in the top three? It's because it's more affordable for me to have a listicle of the top 50 things. That's a 6, 000 word document. Right? Opposed to me having to pay 10 cents a word for the top 20 things. So it's more affordable, therefore I can be more comprehensive.

You know what I'm saying? 

Jared: Okay. Yep. I think I do. Yeah. Um, you're seeing AI, pure AI content rank, but you talked a lot about, uh, well I don't want to add the word heavily, I don't think you said that, that's a common term used, but edited AI content as... Uh, the path forward for you and I do want to go back to it.

I think people should have this healthy mindset like when you're working with clients, you have a budget and you have to work that budget. But frankly. Every website builder should think in terms of that way, whether you give yourself a monthly budget or not, whether you are the budget, right? It's your time instead of your money.

Like you should think the same way. Cause it's a very healthy process to prioritize what tasks you should be working on, but you talked about. Uh, edited AI content because that way you can produce the volume of content needed to scale clients websites. So, what does a process look like for edited AI content that can rank?

Jesse: Yeah, good question. So, I often like, like, like the whole octopus theory. There's one hive mind and there's arms, right? Octo being eight, but there's more like 20 arms, 

Jared: right? Depends on how many scales and how many arms you can create on yourself, right? Well, I mean, 

Jesse: how big is your team? Uh, we're 

Jared: 25 to 30, depending on the day.

Right. So 

Jesse: you're, I have less arms. We have, you know, five core and like 10 floating. Okay. Right. 10 all told. But nonetheless, it starts with one mind who creates, well, let me back up. If we're talking about a global business and I onboard them, first off, I create a content map of their existing top 30 percent articles.

In other words, I go to GC, uh, GSC. See, I'm talking fast now because the caffeine's kicking in. 

Jared: Hey, you went cold brew. Is that cold brew there? 

Jesse: It's, it's warm. I have a, um, I have a thing in the office, a, uh, 

Jared: kettle. Okay, okay. Yeah, because they tell me cold brew is like straight jet fuel. Um, so I thought maybe...

It works too. It works too. Okay, go on. It's okay. Keep talking fast, man. I got an hour, so we can get as much out of you as you can, as you can say. 

Jesse: Oh, boy. I'm used to YouTube where I have like, I've learned to like speak, speak, speak, pause, edit, speak. But this is totally different, so let's just roll with it.

So, I go to Google Search Console. I, I pull out via impressions and clicks the top 30 percent of articles, right? Because oftentimes on a website, the top 20 percent are the ones that rank most. Most of your traffic comes from like the top 20%. Then, because clients often don't have a topical map, or they do a spray and pray or shotgun effect, right, for the last 20 years.

We have to organize that. Right? Then when I have an idea of how to organize it, we build upon it semantically. So, keywords, articles to write. Oftentimes I have an SOP that I record. I say, look, we're going to do it this way. Another way to do it is just have one of our virtual assistants go into this tool over here, spit out an article, have it ready for the writers and editors to go in here.

Here's your raw material. Now edit it in this way, and it takes like a tenth of the time. 

Jared: Topical maps. I have to ask you about that. How are you, how are you building those? What are you, what are you doing for that? 

Jesse: I have, okay, let's back up. So I'm a creative type of person, like, I have to be satiated, or I get sad and I play video games, and it really stinks.

So, when COVID happened, that was a weird time, and I took a writing class by the late David Farland who taught people like, um, Stephanie Myers and Brandon Sanderson, like, really good authors. Nonetheless, in my cohort, I met some real writers. And some of those real writers are on the team today. And I just present keywords and, you know, title text to one of my team members in particular.

And I say, please organize this like a chapter book. And they do. So that's very manual. I don't get into SEO with them. I just want to know, like, logically, how does this fit together? 

Jared: Such an interesting balance we're getting into here. You know, because you expect to hear about an AI blogging process. And yet you don't expect to hear about all the intricacies of manual nature that you do.

I mean, that's something that probably people prior to AI weren't doing, right? Is having an expert sort, sift, and really put together a topical map. So that's really fascinating to hear. So basically, you're going to experts to map out the content, going to AI to produce the first draft, going back to editors and experts to have them fine tune it.

Is that maybe a good way to think about it? 

Jesse: Yes, but they're not experts in the field per se. They're just expert authors. They're professional authors. In other words, the brush that they use to paint with is words. And I tell you what, if you've ever worked with someone who's a professional author to teach them SEO, they get it like this.

It's so easy. Really? That was insane. And they know all the terms for the grammar. I'm like, put those type of words in the front, and these ones, and they're like, yeah, you mean this, you know, some predicate, I'm like, I don't know. 

Jared: So, I'm just trying to think this through, because I go and I dump a ton of keywords, and impressions, and clicks out of GSC.

Um, do you just hand that to somebody, and they can kind of see through the din, and say, oh yeah, I see how this all is going to structure out? Um, and, and what do you typically, um, expect back from them? Like, I'm just trying to think of how I could hire that out. How I could go find someone who has authorship and, and ask them to do that for me.

So 

Jesse: it starts with a framework of how we work, which is Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 articles. Just think of them as chapters of a book. Um, this is old school SEO. Tier 1 links down to all Tier 2s. All Tier 2s then reciprocate links to the Tier 1, and the Tier 2s link to each other. Right? This is not 

Jared: like rocket science.

Classic cornerstone, silo creation, yeah? 

Jesse: Right. Nothing new here. So they know this structure already and I can only give them like a maximum of 300 keywords Right because otherwise he's like this is too much So we give them like the URLs and the title tags so they know what the article is about and then they just they just jam It out man.

Jared: Okay, okay Let's move on to the next part. So I, I get, I get these articles back and, uh, I'm, uh, do I just chuck them into chat GPT? How do I get back results that will rank from AI? It's a big loaded question, I realize. 

Jesse: Sure, I mean, I'll tell you what I've done. I'll tell you exactly what I've done. Um, but we're assuming that we've done the keyword research because I've seen so many times where, where people write about what they want to write about.

Because I'm the expert, I'm the physical therapist that knows, or I'm the, the baseball players, and I just want to write about this thing. So I liken it to, what is this state up there? Um, it's a northern state by the Great Lakes, it has a lot of lakes in the state. Michigan. Yeah, like Michigan has all these ponds.

You're not going to go fishing in the dead pond where there's no fish in it. You have to first identify where all the fish are. Which is keyword research, which is volume based keyword research, and write articles to match to the fish. Now, assuming you've done that correctly, and it's time to write, um, what we first do is, and I would love, and we are developing a tool to do this, I'll tell you exactly what it does, it scrapes the top three SERPs for any given keyword live, uh, all the headers, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, so I have all the headers now, I have like 30 headers from the top three SERPs, SERPs being just the result, right?

So now I know what my competitors are talking about, right? And from that, you can push that to ChatGBT, or I have my writers just look at it logically and be like, How can we do this better? Because, we have to take a step back. Why does ChatGBT content rank to begin with? 

Jared: Right? Because it's pulling from a repository of information already 

Jesse: available.

Yeah, so why could it ever rank? It doesn't make sense. It has to do with, I mean, let's just sit on that for a second. How can ChatGBT content rank to begin with?

If it already exists, in the internet somewhere, why can my website rank for it? It has to do with how we, Combine and structure and link to other articles. That's everything. Um, so you can use raw chat. You can use quad. I like quad better in some respects. It gives tighter sentences Um, but it's more manual.

I have a va who can sit on quad All day, but you get limited out He has like five accounts gmail accounts that he can switch between but then you get limited Um, I really like some seo tools. I think they're all great. You just have to find the one that you like Um, keyword research and competitor research is, is how you're going to win this game 

Jared: though.

What are the biggest mistakes that people run into when using, uh, uh, ChatGPT or Claude? You know, prompting, prompt engineering, um, uh, uh, and then I have a follow up question to that about kind of maybe if there's any training involved because that's also a topic that people are talking about a lot. 

Jesse: If we're talking to the guy or girl who has the nine to five who wants to supplement their income, if a thousand, two, three thousand dollars a month excites them, this is what I would want to say.

I think the biggest mistake is confusing efficiencies. Chat should be T if you're gonna manually talk to it, type it in, type, type, get back, wait for it to spit out. You are wasting so much time. I think the days of coming home from work and doing two hours of work to create three blog posts are over.

Right? So I think that's the biggest mistake. Yes, Chatsby can do it for you, but find a tool that can spit out 20 articles in 5 minutes. Because time is your biggest commodity. I don't care how much money you make, time is still your biggest commodity. 

Jared: Well, let's, let's noodle down that then if it's less about the prompt engineering in the chat GPT online interface and more about spitting out a lot of stuff.

What does that look like for someone who's pretty confused by that? You know, I imagine we're going to get into APIs. We're going to get into secondary tools. Um, what does that process look like from a high level? 

Jesse: I don't want to confuse people. I really want to be clear. If you have a perfectly frameworked article that is comprehensive and does a better job than all your competitors.

And then you have all the articles that can either back that up or kind of elevate it in some way without cannibalizing themselves. That's tricky when you're dealing with a lot of keywords. Then, you can use an assortment of tools to fill in the blanks. I have this H2, I have three H3s under this talking about this, just fill in the blanks.

And tools can do that for you. Um, but the person who's going to screw all this up is the person who thinks, Yippee, Skippy, I can do a million articles right now and just push them out. You know, you're going to have momentary successes, but it's long term not going to work. 

Jared: The structure you keep going back to, are you literally prompting with headers pre planned and asking it to fill it in?

And is that the level of, uh, is that the depth that you need from your experience to consistently rank with this type of content from AI? 100%. Yeah. Okay, so, to the person who takes the topic and says write me a 750 word article to chat GPT, not good enough. Not gonna be good enough to consistently rank.

Jesse: There you go, you found it. So I was having trouble finding it. There's tools that you can click one button, type in keyword, click a button, it gives you article. Correct. I prefer tools that you can dictate headers. 

Jared: Correct. Okay. Can I ask what tool that might be? 

Jesse: Um, there's two, two that I use, one of which is one that we created.

It's more um, It's more raw, but it does the job that I need. So, wordgalaxy. ai You can dictate headers, and you can dictate the, uh, keywords that you can, um, insert in. Kind of like keyword stuffing, but on a small scale. Furthermore, seowriting. ai This is where we've, I haven't talked about it much on Google yet, but we're doing auto blogging Oh, excuse me.

We're doing auto blogging Where I have a perfectly structured website within four days of 550 blog posts. Furthermore, I'm using the tool to have a German domain that's almost done in two days, and then a French domain almost done. So we staged out the website, 550 blog posts, perfectly interlinked. We dictated headers, right?

It looks like a real business, which we can get into for the HCU. And it's four days. The days of you coming home and spending... You know, three hours on two blog posts. I really want people to understand. I think those days are over. 

Jared: You're going to be scaring a few people listening, just so you know. So, you know, when I, when I share your, your Twitter handle or your YouTube handle at the end, people are going to, you're going to get a couple of people going, Oh my goodness, the end of the world is coming.

No, no, 

Jesse: that's good though. This is empowering because you are now, you have the ability to do what costs me tens of thousands of dollars to do on an SEO agency. You can do it with one person. That's crazy. 

Jared: I totally agree with you, for the record. This is the moment where people listening are both so excited at the possibilities and probably so overwhelmed with the processes and the complications that it brings.

Because there's something so easy, and I don't mean easy in a bad way, by the way. There's something so freeing about going, Okay, here's my website, here's what it's about. I'm going to come home after work, I'm going to write about something. And I'm going to publish it. And I'm going to go to bed. And tomorrow I'm going to come home and I'm going to write about something different about that.

And I'm going to publish it and I'm going to go to bed. And there's something very freeing about just that simplicity. And so... The, um, the, the, the freedom in all the stuff you're talking about is clearly there to produce at scale that's unlike anything before. The process is probably overwhelming for a lot of people listening.

It 

Jesse: is, but if you get the process, imagine coming home, you go to your computer after you had dinner with the family, it's 8, 9, you know, 10 p. m. And you have 10 articles, you merely have to edit them. The creative juices needed to edit are much different than creating anew. Right way 

Jared: different. Let's talk about editing because we haven't talked about that yet.

And you mentioned at the outset like Editing is a big deal for you. It makes sense, right? We've all at this point heard that editing has a major part to play in using AI technology for content So let's let's let's get into the editing on it and talk about it You are able to get articles out that seemingly Are fairly dialed in, right?

Like you dictate the header structure. So you're basically just asking to fill in paragraph, text, bullet points, structured lists, maybe unstructured. I'm making this up. You didn't tell me this, but I'm just kind of trying to fill in the blanks. And you've got, you're getting articles back that semantically speaking probably have a lot.

That is necessary. So what does editing look like? 

Jesse: So editing would be this. If you want to break it down, here's what I would do. The top purpose is, number one, realize the top of the article is the most important to Google. Right? Title tag, H1, most important. URL slug, very important. Then the first sentence needs to answer, at least relate to, the H1.

Right? Go into everything below any header and just make sure it is concise, it's tight, it's not fluff. You want to win the game? That's where you go first. And then I do what is, I don't even have a name for it. I was going to give it a name. It's like, I do like a check, like a, a flyover check. I scroll all the way to the bottom of the article, especially when I'm editing, you know, the global businesses, because we edit, I haven't even talked about that, but we edit, uh, write in teams for other companies.

Other companies might have a write in team and our job is to edit their stuff. Yep. But nonetheless, I do a flyover. I want to look at the text visually. Is there a lot of white space or is it just blocks of paragraphs? Right. Blocks of paragraphs stinks. Bullet points. Tables. All these things. So, break up your text no more than two to three sentences per block in my opinion.

And just make it visually appealing. 

Jared: Fact checking. How much is involved in that? How much is that necessary? And how, what kind of links are you going to for that? Alright, let's 

Jesse: talk about fact checking, because I think that's a valid one. I think people saying like, AI detection is invalid, whereas fact checking is valid and has to do with your niche.

If I'm talking about Romania as a travel blog, Romania has been Romania has been Romania. It hasn't really changed that much in terms of topography and geography and all these things, right? So if we're talking about a niche like that, I'm less concerned. You're talking about YMYL, then you need the experts to come in behind.

Mm hmm. Mm 

Jared: hmm. Yeah, you mentioned finance earlier. That's something that comes to mind, right? That's certainly YMYL. Um, uh, for those of you who aren't aware, uh, AI does lie to you sometimes. Yeah. I 

Jesse: mean, it depends on the niche, in my opinion, I've seen it, it will hallucinate when it doesn't have information, but if it's like a, a, a very well defined topic, such as Romania.

It 

Jared: does good. Let me ask you about AI's role in additional elements in an article. Okay? Um, uh, imagery. Uh, you know, the mid journeys, the dollies, these. Um, uh, uh, graphics. Uh, uh, uh, I saw a Canva integration with OpenAI recently. Uh, obviously Canva has its own AI stuff going on. Uh, infographics, uh, checklists, uh, calculators.

I'm just spitballing here, right? Just throwing things that are not core to the content. They're not the writing of the content of the articles. Yet we know that they do a variety of things, right? They attract links. They increase time on page. They, uh, they look good for Google, right? We know they like bullet points and lists and all this other stuff.

So where's AI playing a role in that for you, if at all? 

Jesse: So, that was the most difficult thing to overcome, is images. Oh my gosh, I hate having to go to a licensure place and spend a dollar for a photo. 

Jared: Talking to an ex photographer here is so careful, but yes, I do, I do know what you mean. Ha! 

Jesse: Uh, let me ask you a question before we dive into this.

So, we recently created those 550 blog posts, right, in four days. Mm hmm. And they're pretty tight. They're about 3, 000 words each. Conventionally, old school, two years ago, how much would that have cost you? With, with the image at least on each one. How many again? 

Jared: 5. 50. Oh, that's gonna be, I mean, 25, 000 on the low end?

On the low end, right. Yeah, 25, 000 with very cheap, you know, basic writing. 

Jesse: Right, basic writing. It costs us 1, 500 and all the images are via MidJourney and they're awesome. It's crazy! So there's AI tools that can do it automatically now and they put in the alt text automatically and they look awesome.

Now, yet again, the whole AI thing does well in certain niches, does bad in other niches. Um, travel blogs, it excels in. You're gonna talk about insurance? Eh, you better be careful. 

Jared: So I have to ask, because I tell you, everyone's saying it right now, like, what AI tools do you find work well at that level to do something like that?

I mean, Midjourney's not going to spit that out with a generic prompt. 

Jesse: Yeah. Um, so what we do is seowriden. ai and wordgalaxy for the words. seowriden. ai can do the images like that. That's how we built the website. It's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It's insane. I have a VA do it all now. Like, it's on autopilot. We're, we're creating the German domain and the French one.

That's gonna be done. I mean, think about that, first off. We can do different languages, too, now? 

Jared: And these are just these are different websites or translated versions of the website going on to German we have 

Jesse: um So we created whatever. com. We're gonna create whatever. de and whatever. fr and they have the same Structure semantically on each one of them.

I don't know if I'll do hreflangs I don't think I will but nonetheless I'm showing Google like this is a real brand and I'm gonna do a What's it called schema organizational markup? Um, cause this is just me insulating against any further HCU type of updates. We 

Jared: are going to get to HCU. I have it blocked out, but I still got some more questions for you.

How are these sites doing? Like, you talk about these sites, how are they doing? 

Jesse: So, this is all experimental. Um, these ones, two days ago, the whatever. com one just got posted. But I have other ones that have been, you know, since I had YouTube, I'm like, let's just experiment. Uh, Bonsai Mary didn't get hit by HCU, albeit a small...

Um, website with 350 blog posts, it's trending upwards and the things are getting indexed and it's 100 percent AI content. Um, what is the other one? How widely spoken is kind of sideways. So, I mean, they're doing fine from what I can see with newish websites. 

Jared: Um, This process you're using with clients as well, though, it's doing well?

Jesse: I do hybrid with clients because, listen, I don't want to be, the tip of the, so let's, let's, let's talk about that. How can I have YouTube channel? How can I experiment and how can I serve my clients better? Yep. Right? Well, I might as well experiment in the public eye, because it's like infotainment. If I fall on my face, then so be it.

I fall on my face. I've already done it once on the, on YouTube. I fell on my face. It's fine. Um, I'm not afraid to experiment, because it serves my clients better, because... I've walked 

Jared: through this when you say hybrid with your clients. You're talking about the AI edited, uh, content. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And how's that doing?

So people can, I'm just trying to create lines for people to understand, like. How much you've done each of this out, you've done AI purely with mass website creation. I'll call it, I mean, and that's new, fresher. You have a couple of sites, one's doing well, one sideways. And then your AI edited process that we've kind of gone through, like with client work and that, how's that doing overall?

Is that, are you seeing these kinds of consistent growths and gains from it? 

Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at what was 18, 000 in February to almost 100, 000 per month now. That's pretty nutty. Yeah, it's pretty nutty. Um, but I want to be clear there's hybrid approach throughout So take the pure ai auto blogging approach where you're just spitting out articles.

That's like up here and down here can be Manual writing there's gradients in between for instance on bonsai mary. I have one of our virtual assistants interface with seo writing. ai Draft the article out, embed manually two YouTube videos, and interlink, like the old school interlinking, right? I also use Link Whisper, but I think that's yours and Spencer's, right?

Spencer's. Spencer's, right, I use, I like that tool. Um, so there's, if articles are no longer the, the, the problem, the big blockade in the road, we need to focus on structure, and, and, what is it, what is the gentleman, Coray Gerber? Mm hmm. Yeah, Corey. Yeah, correct. He calls it cost of retrieval. Mm hmm. I'm into that because I've seen it work.

Mm hmm It's it's it's Google. We are the expert here and everything is not more than two depth from the home page 

Jared: Well, you're reading my mail I have my number three topic that I wrote down what we're talking is internal linking because The more content you produce, especially when you're following a very semantic approach that you are, uh, and you already outlined like, hey, I got my tier one article, I got my tier two, like, all of that is heavily predicated on solid internal linking.

Um, so how are you publishing that kind of content and then internally linking? Obviously there is a manual approach and that is a very manual process, especially when you're pumping out that much content. 

Jesse: So I would call it natural interlinks and like the rigid. The rigid is we reciprocate, we point to tier one, et cetera.

I always point, okay, we have tier one articles, tier one, we have tier two under here. All the tier two articles point up to the tier one. How do they do that? They do that before the first H2. And it's very rigid. And then they interlink the tier two articles, all interlinked together near the conclusion.

That's rigid. Now on top of that, enter a tool like Link Whisper. You can have natural 

Jared: How are you placing the rigid internal links? Is that manual? Is that done by a VA? Is that done programmatically? 

Jesse: Um, ideally, we've trained the write in team on, on either side of the table. Client side, they have a write in team.

Our side, they know to do this now. Now with, like, Banzai Mary, I, I, the VA, who kicks butt, by the way, they know how to do it. Run. Go. Do it. 

Jared: And when you say the writing team, this would be in the editing process for your, for what you outlined. 

Jesse: Now, keep in mind, we're still doing 100 percent original. The majority is still 100 percent original.

You're sitting down on the keyboard and typing because realize clients, this is what people have to understand. You are more agile as a solopreneur, like one person. When you're dealing with a company with a thousand employees, if you want to move that ship, it takes a long time to turn left. So we still are doing a lot of stuff with big clients that is manual blogging, right?

When we do a hybrid approach, yeah, we have to manually put it in there, but I'm talking about. From idea to you sitting down on a keyboard and typing this out. That still happens a lot. 

Jared: Yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah. Uh, especially with, we'll call them corporate clients, right, where, you know, there's a way to do things.

Um, with, uh, with, with like a link whisper tool, uh, it has its auto recommendations, right? Which you can kind of fine tune a bit. It also has its, uh, uh, well, it has its auto internal linking as well, where you can just dictate that anytime this. Uh, word is used. I'm, I'm rounding the edges on this one, but anytime this word is used internally, link back to this article.

Are you using and which features are you using there? 

Jesse: It's like below, I, I like to use Yost. It's below Yost. It's like the one where you can manually say, I need to interlink out. I need to interlink in. Mm-hmm. . So when we go to post it, 'cause everything's drafted out in this scenario, the VA knows to go in and do this and that.

It's like recip. It's always reciprocation. It has to be. 

Jared: A lot of what you've talked about from starting with the topical map, G S C, starting with, um, with that, uh, with the AI creation of art of articles, uh, following a good structure, the editing of content, making sure that sentences are really, uh, highly edited and to the point, um, to internal linking a lot of this.

Sounds very much like it's outsourceable, if that's a word. Um, and it sounds like that's kind of how you rely on the amount of content to be produced. Talk about that for a little bit for someone who's listening. Again, going back to the person you talked about who's coming home and is used to writing a blog post or two a night.

And, um, and has a good system set up for that. What is a, what is a pro, what is putting together a process of teammates look like? And maybe how should people think about that as they look to maybe change models or look to lean into the model you're talking about? 

Jesse: I was doing a thought experiment last night.

I said to myself, if I didn't know anyone in this space and I had no connections, how fast and what would I do to ramp up to say 100, 000 per month with SEO services? Um, no, excuse me, 100, 000 per year, not 100, 000 per month, per year. Ooh, tell 

Jared: me more about that. 

Jesse: No, no, no, like 100, 000 per year is a good salary in America, right?

And what I would do immediately is hire a VA. Why? Two fold, you duplicate your time and it's very affordable. I don't, I don't know how much people talk about this, but you can go to Upwork and you can find people throughout the world that are eager to work and they are awesome people. So if time is our most precious commodity, I would immediately hire a VA.

And when I'm at work, I'm making, say, 30 an hour, I have someone behind the scenes who's working, and I'm duplicating my time, you know. And then from that, when I get home from work, I would be the person dictating the keywords, I hope I'm answering your question, and then editing an article, pushing live.

Rinse and repeat every single day. What, I mean, what would you do if you wanted to make 10 grand a month and you didn't know anyone? What would you do? 

Jared: No, the VA is the right place to start, in my opinion. Certainly, I would even argue that, um, you know, uh, we could get into whether you're already in the, in the space that you're in, the niche you're in, if you're an expert or not.

And that would obviously change the game a bit. Um, and if you need to leverage, uh, experts as well for your content, but certainly the VA is going to give you the best time for value money as long as you kind of have a process and framework to give them. 

Jesse: Right, and that's it, the process and framework. Um, my goal is always to be the hive mind type effect.

I'm a big science fiction nerd, man. This is how I think. It's like, if you can gain the knowledge in SEO and how this game works, all the other tools will take care of themselves nowadays. The hardest part is acquiring the knowledge, in my opinion. 

Jared: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I think, I think you're right. I think, um, a lot of people listening are going to be a bit overwhelmed, and yet really excited about the prospects of diving into all this.

Um, I, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, uh, you know, where, and we don't need to noodle into it too far because I do want to talk to you about the helpful content update as it relates to everything we've talked about, but how important are getting links when you're producing this much content at scale?

Are you almost overwhelming, uh, the need for links by, by producing so much content and having to be so topically and semantically relevant? Or are links still pretty important for you as you work, you know, to build client websites and even some of your projects on the side? 

Jesse: I'm not the best at links. I mean, I'll tell you straight up.

I'm, if, if I could classify myself as something, I'd be an on page SEO. I'm a content guy. I'm a writer. Like, I like it. Um, but links matter to me the most when it's a money page. I call them money pages. With content heavy, you want to call them niche sites. I don't even want to call them niche sites anymore because I feel like those are the ones that are targeted.

Um, I wouldn't worry about links. I would worry about dominating topical authority, and then you can worry about that. That's, that's year two, in my opinion. I mean, I, oh, pfft. Once you get authority, and you have some... Let, let me back up. You know, the caffeine's definitely kicking in. 

Jared: Good. I can see you're about halfway through that.

Maybe a little more. Ha 

Jesse: ha. A lot of people who listen to this channel have never experienced a website that is fertile ground. They've never experienced a website that's a DR50 And any seed that you put in the ground, it grows into a beautiful thing. They've only experienced putting seeds on concrete, which is a new website.

And that feeling, those two differences, that's a huge difference. You know what I mean? 

Jared: But you need links to be a DR 50. 

Jesse: You do, but you can also attract links, too. 

Jared: Ah, so links do matter, but... But don't 

Jesse: focus on them, right? I have two hours, you know, per night to work on 

Jared: this thing. How do you attract links in your content creation model?

Jesse: Data based content. Give me data no one else in the world has. Or compile data no one else has 

Jared: compiled. Oftentimes those queries and those keywords don't show up in topical maps from GSC. How do you find, like, those topics and are you including them in your content creation 

Jesse: process? So the example website was based upon one keyword I saw.

One keyword. And I built 550 blog posts logically from it. 

Jared: Logically. Logic. Is this going back to your science fiction brain? Because I have a hard time thinking of 300 keywords. 

Jesse: You can ask Chachapiti to exhaust a topic. We have to be very careful, because like I was saying with the metaphor of fish in the ponds, you can get in trouble of putting your line in the water where there's no fish and there'll never be fish and you just wasted a day on an article that stinks.

And it doesn't stink because the words stink. It just stinks because no one cares. Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. 

Jared: I'm a little Does your content attract links? I think that's, uh, for a lot of people they hear, Oh yeah, write content, and if it's good, it'll get links over time, and then, you know, a lot of people, a year or two later, don't end up with links to show for it.

And it's a bit of the chicken or the egg, right? Man, in order to, uh, get links, I need to be ranking number one, because that's how I get links, but in order to rank number one, I need to be a DR50 site, so that, and so it's almost this revolving, circular process. I'm just trying to help people understand your take on it, and how it plays itself out for you, um, and, uh, it, you know, I, I think I hear you say, That content has the highest ROI for the efforts you're putting in, and ROI is a return on your investment.

Yet links do matter, and you have to find a way to get them by maximizing your ROI. Um, is that kind of a good synopsis of what you were saying? 

Jesse: It is, and the reason I'm hesitant to really press into that is because I'm fearful that someone is going to prioritize the wrong things. At the wrong time and just waste a year of your life.

Okay. Think about it. If I'm an authoritative website, forbes. com and I need a backlink, I need to show like authority through external links, they're going to go to the first SERP result oftentimes. Therefore, if you can rank number one for any given keyword, you will get natural links. If you want to press into it further, use a tool like, uh, Kaggle, or Google Data.

Go into your niche, see what unique data is presented via spreadsheets, push it to ChatGPT, and tease out data. Because that, I mean, that's what, um, I look up to this guy. What is his name? Um, gosh darn, Dean? Um, what's the gentleman's name with exploding topics? 

Jared: Oh, uh, yeah. I, I know exploding topics. Brian Dean, right?

Jesse: This is what he's done. He has presented gobs of data and he just gets natural 

Jared: backlinks. Yeah, Brian Dean. Um, hey, so let's touch on it. You know, we're getting to that point and I want to make sure that we do talk about the helpful content update. A landscape changer for website creation, especially for websites that, um, you know, maybe their business is creating content rather than say, uh, pushing a product or a SaaS or something like that.

Yeah. Which a lot of us fall into, right? So give us your high level takes on how a lot of the stuff you just talked about and how it relates to a helpful content update, 

Jesse: right? We produce the content the same. So that whole engine of content creation has not changed through HCU. It has to do with how, how are you presenting your stuff to Google?

It comes back to EAT, but if I was. Doing this and I am doing this I'm presenting my website as a business who is in the ecosystem of Google in other words My business quote unquote whatever. com may buy Google ads one day from the perspective of Google why because I'm in your ecosystem Google. I'm part of you What does a niche website supply to Google?

They're a displayer of ads what you think Google wants to be the displayer of ads and control it all via SGE 

Jared: I mean likely they we know the way SGE goes certainly 

Jesse: Right. So, niche websites to Google, in my opinion, are outside of the ecosystem they've created. Therefore, I want to be considered in the ecosystem.

And every, you know, these businesses, and there's exceptions I've seen. Some friends, they have clients who got hit that are real businesses. But I want to be presented as providing a service, a product, and I'm in your ecosystem, Google. That's how I'm playing this one. 

Jared: So, to kind of spiral into that, I'm a website that writes about finance topics.

I'm just going with it because, um, because you went there. My primary monetization strategy up until the Helpful Content Update was, um, affiliate, ad revenue, um, Yeah, we'll just, we'll pause there at those two. Um, what do you recommend I do? You're saying I create a service, like maybe a financial newsletter service that people can pay for, or financial planning, or advice, or do I make an e book, or a product, or maybe even go as far as to create a small SaaS product, or a membership group.

Are these the types of things you're talking about, the classic niche site adding on? 

Jesse: Yeah. And on top of that, if I had a finance website, what's the easy play? Well, do you want a consultation entry like, like services? Does your website have a slash services page right now? That's the easy qualifier. 

Jared: Um, and you know, 

Jesse: sorry, Jerry, what was the guy who had on with the honeymoons recently?

Jim Campbell? Mm hmm. Yeah, I I was looking at his footers Emulate that guy's footers. 

Jared: Okay, 

Jesse: I'm serious because yeah, those are real companies. Mm hmm, right? Or do you have a blog role for your homepage? 

Jared: Yeah, that's certainly been a trending topic. Um, and again, a lot of it does go back to, are you a business, quote unquote, or not?

And it would just seem that perhaps the helpful content update has shown us that, by and large, Google doesn't consider content websites to be, quote unquote, businesses, right? They, they seem to preference, uh, other types of sale on, online in terms of how they validate it. What 

Jesse: do you think about HCU? I mean, this is such a hot topic.

Like, what are your thoughts? Oh, 

Jared: man. What do I think about it? Let's see. Um, Yeah, I think what I just said, basically, from everything I'm seeing, it's very interesting running an agency, um, because I'm heavily involved in the quote unquote niche website world. I love how we all have to put quotes on it now.

Um, by the way, that's a whole topic for another day. Uh, heavily involved in the niche website world as the host here, and, um, I work with a lot of, um, those types of websites, and certainly... So many of them have gone down. Even if you didn't get completely nailed, so many went down 15 20 percent just from the natural drop off that got created by other types of sites rising above you.

As an agency, I mean, we work with 25 35 businesses um, a month and it was stunningly stark to go look at how those websites performed. Only one of our webs of the clients we had site dropped. So, okay, 

Jesse: I didn't mention that. That's it. None of ours dropped. And I don't want to say 

Jared: that, you said it 35. 

Jesse: Right, 1 in 35 and 1 out of, I would say we have 10, you know, like that.

And 

Jared: that could have been seasonal, by the way. I didn't really dive into it too much further. I mean, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't really do a lot of math on it. But I got the results enough to say, Wow, that's, that's interesting, right? So what do I think of the HCU? I think I just said it, right? 

Jesse: So it goes back to EEAT and presenting yourself as a real...

Quote unquote business. 

Jared: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and so a lot of what we went through on today's interview had to do with content creation at scale. And um, no matter what it sounds like though, you're saying that the types of things we touched on here at the very end are paramount, no matter how you're going to be creating content going forward.

Jesse: Yeah, and it's encouraging. This is supposed to be an encouraging. I read a book. I think I have it. I think it's at home It's like how to project happiness and be happy these type of things I want to always be encouraging in all my videos and this is has to be encouraging to you because you can create Faster than ever before therefore if you can get the foundation blocks in place, then you can just roll with this thing Well, if 

Jared: I were to summarize a lot of what you said and, and, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but to me, the really encouraging facet of this is that tying this back to the HCU, it does now feel like we have a lot more that's gotten added to our plates in order to create a viable business that ranks nowadays.

You know, we didn't even get into all the kind of social media and other channels that, that it looks like we should also have as well. But we got a lot of work added to our plates. Continuing to think about content creation from the, in the same linear way we used to and the amount of time it took, the amount of expense it cost us, the amount of resources it, it, it outlayed.

I think if there's hope here, it's that you've given us a great process to exponentially increase our content output so we can focus on some of the other things that now we need to focus on with the HCU being present. That's the hope, 

Jesse: right? That's the hope. I, um, I know we're like an hour in, but I'm, I'm not even done my, my tea, Jared.

I mean, we can keep rolling. Let's just do two hours. We could just 

Jared: do two. I could record part two now, not even tell anyone. And then we'll just have it serendipitously come out, uh, six months from now. Uh, you did signal it. We are coming to an end here. Um, I, I, I'd be remiss to not let you let people know about your very popular YouTube channel.

Um, Jesse Cunningham V, which stands for the fourth, by the way. Um, is that right? You're the fourth? Fifth. Oh yeah, V. IV would be fourth. Wow. Every once in a while I really stick my foot in my mouth in a good way here on the podcast. That's not a bad 

Jesse: stick your foot in the mouth. Come on. It's true. It's 

Jared: not too bad.

It just makes me look dumb. Um, so Jesse kind of, uh, five or V. Um, and I mean, like I said, I, I was, I had to be careful. I was up last night watching a lot of your videos. So, um, but yeah, tell us a little bit about your YouTube channel and then, um, any other places people can follow along with you on. 

Jesse: So, I'm trying to provide value through YouTube.

If you haven't checked out the channel, please subscribe. We just hit 20, 000 subs. I gotta, man, can I tell you something? Please! If, I don't know if I should tell you this, if you look back at, like, my third video Oh gosh, yep. Okay. I employed the same SEO tactics on my YouTube channel as I do for my clients and my websites.

And there was this one video, I was like, dude, that's a cool video. And it was like a thousand blog posts in 2022. And that was Spencer's video. And if you look at my third video, the one that took off in like February of this year. Yeah, I emulated you guys it's unique content inside of it, but the rapper the bow all of it is like a similar title That's called I would say parasitic SEO.

It doesn't hurt your guys video. It still rocks it But when that one's finished it gives a um, what's your McCall it like a recommended video? And I got when you guys were coming up. This is how the channel I owe a lot to you guys This is how this is funny. This is how my channel took off. I drafted your Most popular 

Jared: video.

I have no idea what you just really went into there, but I'm gonna have to go check this out 

Jesse: I'm just saying go look at one of my oldest videos and then look at your most popular video You're gonna see a lot of similarities Although the content is unique and I drafted it and that's how the channel my channel right now got its first boost Well, look 

Jared: at you.

I I should maybe I should try that because I have a Fledgling YouTube channel that just broke a thousand people. I saw that right man So, yeah, well, it's, uh, infant days. Um, thank you, Jesse, for coming on board. I, um, I feel like, I don't normally re listen to podcast interviews that I do, but I feel like this is definitely one I need to go back and take a lot of notes from.

Appreciate you being really candid too about your process and some of the kind of inner workings of how you, how you do this. It's, uh, we could have gone a couple hours. I totally agree with you. 

Jesse: Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. I mean, I'm humbled. This is crazy, man. This is surreal for me because I've been watching you guys for years.

So thank you for the opportunity. 

Jared: Well, welcome on. You, you definitely delivered. So thank you for bringing so much value. I'm sure we'll talk to you again sometime soon. Until then, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Jared.

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